Forgive me for going directly to the core of the matter, but where is the X8 Project now as compared to 2018? Are you saying X8 is about to be in business with the latest updates?
The project is a more mature one compared to the beginnings from a few years ago. The vision of the project is the same. However, we stayed in the business without any pause. The latest updates will hopefully put us into a gear or two higher.
We haven’t seen you for a few months. What happened?
Compliance process takes longer than people think. Also, the business of stable coins is more sophisticated than it seems on the surface. Quick and simple solutions that would give you any competitive edge over the medium- and long-term don’t really work in most cases. The amount of work and research that goes into a product like ours is bordering on science; however, we are in business and this also requires good positioning in the market, doing what is necessary and post the results afterwards. We always strive to be one step ahead of the competition; therefore, we need to put in the required effort that matches this.
The rules and regulation are the same for everyone and always have the final say. It makes no sense to over-speculate about the processes, which can take a good part of a year or longer. It is not in our domain. We need to respect that those are the underlying controls and that good things always take time.
Is the X8currency stable coin concept of today different than from a few years ago?
It is different in many ways. The orientation of our stable coin product to target value preservation is the same and the goal to achieve this with 8 currencies is also the same. Changes are going in the direction of decentralization. The new configuration of reserves pool is more decentralized, the system can now allocate funds across as many as 70 accounts. Portfolio risk management is more advanced too and is based on a new factorial risk calculus concept, which improves the precision of risk allocation. These are fundamental changes that have not been available before and which we have developed and implemented during 2020.
During the development we were looking to make significant advancements over the initial design to stay competitive and we tried our best to complete them prior to the submission so that the concept of the coin with the latest construction could be clearly understood. There are several innovative features included in the mechanism and in the way in which the mechanism actually targets stability. The aim was to optimize the ratio between risks and rewards. For the stable coin the methodology for risk management and the mechanism for stability are crucial. In this sense it differs notably from the initial construction. X8currency design is now very far from having only a passive 8-currencies allocation or only 8 accounts targeting stability individually, which is what most imagine when they hear about a concept like ours.
What did the last 3 years mean for the stable coin products in the market?
It meant a lot of development across the board. In our case, we wished we could do more, since the market also has developed and it seems that the gap is closer now than what it was. Compared to 3 years ago there is a lot of competition now, which was not there before. However, most of these competitors operate in the segment of stable coins backed by individual currencies.
There is still room for improvement in the concept even for those type of payment instruments and also for the stable coin market in general. Despite the increase in competition, fundamentally not much has changed for the stable coin during this time, although we have seen big changes in terms of significantly increased regulatory requirements. These represent one of the biggest factors in shaping the stable coin segment at the moment. Regulatory requirements will also most probably continue to increase going forward. On the other hand, the fundamental development of the stable coin concept is the determining parameter from the business point of view, and thus we will be looking to keep the focus of the stable coin blueprint advancements, which is a core element of our vision going forward.
Can you explain a bit more your perspective about how stable coins might look like going forward?
Stable coins themselves will probably undergo a trend of structural changes. Unlike pure cryptocurrencies, we should not forget that stable coins are linked to cash and this links them to all sorts of open questions that existing traditional currencies have been dealing with for decades or even centuries. Every currency needs to be able to answer them (including Bitcoin); however, stable coins are in a unique spot because they are as relevant in the crypto domain as they are in the traditional currency space. During the current hype these aspects are mostly being overlooked by participants entering the market.
In the future the concept of the stable coin itself might get transformed from a passive concept of tokenized cash deposits into something which could be technologically seen as a hybrid between a tokenized cash instrument and a proper cryptocurrency. At that point stable coins could represent the pinnacle and be ahead in the game – the game being which currency or cryptocurrency is capable of playing the role of the payment instrument most optimally. This is a part of the deployment of blockchain technology, yet blockchain and cryptocurrency markets are very young. It would be only natural to expect that in 5 to 10 years the landscape will look drastically different from what it is now. We will do all we can to be prepared for this trend.
What should readers understand about this race between stable coins and cryptocurrencies?
It is about payment instruments on the blockchain infrastructure. Currently the main competition in blockchain is happening between two larger segments. On the one hand we have the development of consensus protocols. This area is also the one where the most investments into R&D is happening. Key issues, which different approaches to consensus protocols aim to address are speed, security and level of decentralization and the networks content capabilities. Developers are choosing specific trade-offs to target specific results, however usually the result comes at the expense of a compromise in one of the three. For example, everyone loves to see a big and smart decentralized network, but we also know that this can be more costly to operate and can also be slower when executing transactions but, then again, it can also be very secure. These types of instruments (like Ether) don’t focus on price stability. They are pure cryptocurrencies by themselves. Prices of these instruments depend on supply and demand.
On the other hand, stable coins in the current form only borrow from the existing consensus protocols. Stable coins are not reinventing consensus protocols. Instead, they rather focus on adding some form of a stable anchor in terms of tokenization of cash or assets for achieving greater price stability. The competition is therefore not direct. What it does, is that it creates an appeal to a different audience or for different use cases. In other words, stable coins are not really competing with cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin and Ether.
The two mentioned segments complement each other in a way. Consensus protocol driven projects are currently seen by the core crypto community as the pinnacle of the development, while stable coins are seen by the same group as an add on. A possibility exists that in the long-term this could change.
Are you saying that stable coins could take the lead in the area of consensus protocol development?
Not really necessarily. Consensus protocols will continue to be developed further by all kinds of different projects regardless of whether they are stable coin projects or not. Speeds will increase and the efficiency of the technology will improve in any case. However, a consensus protocol that would be an integral part of the stable coins protocol could prove to be a more comprehensive solution. If this happens, then in the right format and with rich content, such solutions could have a competitive advantage in the market, especially if the characteristics of it would match those of what we would otherwise see from a pure cryptocurrency in terms of trustless systems and the decentralization on one hand and in terms of the price stability of a stable coin on the other.
Implications of such a hybrid concept would be that it would also be easier to implement it into various eco-systems because the solution would rest on the concept of a stable value integrated at every point of the system, while leveraging the very wide applicability of the crypto aspect. It would make a great and diverse platform and it is one of the possibilities of how stable coins could stay relevant in crypto for years to come even if competitors like Bitcoin become faster and more capable. Such solutions could better answer the monetaristic questions mentioned earlier. In terms of capacities to deal with complexities of such solutions the current state of technology does not seem to support it yet, however we cannot rule it out, especially if we will see computing power and network speeds increase significantly going forward.
To go back a bit, what was the most difficult part of the ICO phase for the project?
Definitely the main one was the combination of the required pace of adjustment during the crash of 2018 together with the workload increase that happened simultaneously. Maintaining sharp focus and precise decision-making during the process, little to no routine, keeping mistakes to a minimum and pushing hard while not having much control were all challenges we had to deal with on an almost continuous basis.
Due to the circumstances at the time, we got much less for the money we raised, but at least we raised it correctly thanks to our KYC/AML measures. Operating on a low budget can be an opportunity to improve your skills, but it can also be a burden on the speed of development no matter how one slices it. The project is fortunate to have moved through and past those challenges.
What saved you during that time?
Risk management. Worst case scenario analysis and mitigation is one of the key aspects of any business. Clearly analysing all sorts of possible bad eventualities and dealing with sequences of action that address them can be quite an exercise. However, the experience from everyone in the team and the advisory board helped us in staying on track and kept propelling us forward.
How did the project cope with the crash of the cryptocurrency market of 2018-2019?
It was one of the most difficult times. Few understood that liquidity in the cryptocurrency markets was very thin at that time and still is to a certain extent. Projects that raised larger amounts did not stand any chance of really converting their cryptocurrency holdings into actual traditional USD or EUR for example. A small reallocation would move the markets notably, which is what we were observing in our transactions as well even at much lower amounts.
During such circumstances and especially when prices are moving lower very quickly at the same time one has to evaluate available options quickly without being superficial about the outcome analysis. We decided to front load a lot of the costs linked to the initial investment for operational assets and worked our way to secure our future that way. Nobody was able to predict how long the crypto winter was going to last. At the same time a project like ours needs to have the basic elements in place that allow for the development work to continue uninterrupted during times of austerity. Structuring a business in such a way that it has as little dependency as possible on the daily movements of cryptocurrency prices and also on income development is difficult, but it is also of paramount importance in order to keep pace with the broader developments in the worldwide market. The solution that we went for was not an ideal one by any means, but it was a part of the transformation.
The crisis also pushed us to focus more on what essentially is our true core business. When this is clear prioritization happens more naturally and in a more direct and efficient way. I believe we retained a competitive edge despite being underfunded during this time, which allowed us to step out of the crisis eventually.
What are your most memorable moments in the project’s development so far?
That would be the meeting with the board of the Securities and Commodities Authority in Abu Dhabi. Attending and speaking at the World Leaders Forum is another one, plus meeting some of the financial market leaders and decision makers in Doha, Qatar. Preparing the documentation for the submission also marked an important step as it gave us an opportunity to present the project on a high level. These would be at the top of the list so far.
Can you share with readers some of the experiences regarding the community in crypto? What is it like in crypto?
The nature of the crypto space is such that it creates a dichotomy between security and trying to maintain contact. Asymmetry of identity (known-vs-hidden) is quite emphasized in the crypto domain. One simply cannot easily fulfill both sides at the same time. The core crypto community is filled with people who are vocal about their expectations or criticism and they would like to be heard. However not everyone understands that on a certain level the management of projects and companies needs to follow a fine line between working for the company and under the rules of the law, while at the same time considering the remarks coming from whomever it may be – regardless of whether under a pseudonym or not.
It is not in every instance that a question can be answered and sometimes the priority needs to be put on work rather than on communication in order to overcome the dilemma that is giving rise to this dichotomy. Since the members that run the project are openly visible, we cannot afford to take any shortcuts. In the end, I think that for every project there needs to be a compromise between the supporting community and the leadership in such a way that it remains effective for the greater benefit of the project. Most of the serious investors and followers in the community seem to understand this. This balance is key to any small project that wishes to develop and succeed in crypto.
The article you have written recently implies that you see Libra as competition. Are there any other projects that would merit the same label?
There were many projects from 2017 and 2018 that tried to do a similar thing and went out of business or have not accomplished anything. A handful of them were able to make some progress, but none of them followed the specific route that our project did. In Switzerland we are now looking at two main projects that are simultaneously requesting regulatory approval from their financial authorities. The two projects are the Libra project (Diem Association) and our X8currency project (*Since this article was written, Diem Association withdrew their application for Payment System license in Switzerland). Binance is also attempting to come up with a multi-currency backed stable coin, however, as said, from the regulatory perspective these are very different products. This tells us that the competition in the multi-currency backed stable coins is still not that intense, which is quite a contrast compared to the USD backed stable coin segment where the market is saturated already and where regulated and non-regulated variants of the individual currency backed stable coins already exist and are well established.
How do you see the development in this territory for your project and for the worldwide market?
The market is going to become more crowded, which will lead to price competition especially in the single currency backed stable coin segment. The conversion costs are still pretty high at the moment regardless of which stable coin we look at. This can be compared to the FX market from the 90s or even prior, when the market spreads were so much higher than what we see today. Then after this period between 2005 and 2020 the market spreads in FX became drastically narrower. On the one hand this makes it easier for investors to trade currencies, but due to pressures on profitability it also reduced the number of companies offering quality FX trading services for example. Something similar is to be expected for stable coins over the years. Gradually and over time trading with stable coins will become increasingly more effective in terms of costs.
Open for discussion is how the central bank digital currencies will influence the market. Here we need to remind ourselves that the core crypto community may not prefer these solutions and this will always leave enough place for private projects in the market if they will find a way to cater to the needs of the core crypto community.
Overall, this means that stable coins could develop into a 2-tier or 3-tier market environment. Blockchain payment instruments issued by monetary authorities will most probably take over a large part of the market share. Then there will be private solutions, which will be competitive enough to maintain their market position under a regulated umbrella. Third, there will probably always be an unregulated segment of the market, where some stable coins will continue to exist and will retain their appeal to the audience that does not wish to compromise on what Bitcoin and decentralized ledger technologies allows them to do, which is to operate outside of the banking system.
What do you consider to be the points that helped the most as regards project’s progress?
To name some of the relevant ones, the institutional investor group on our side puts us in a different position, which otherwise would not be possible. Another big step forward was also the capability to interconnect the X8 system between various exchanges and brokers. It took us a while to fine-tune the system, but we were able to do it and with this X8 has the capacity to place its product in a market like a cryptocurrency exchange, provided that such a cryptocurrency exchange supports the FIX Protocol for example. Through this route the system has the capability to reach end users. Also, the mechanism for stability, which we were able to assemble, is very unique and it is capable of benefiting the broader worldwide financial domain. It is based on AI. This makes it relevant going forward because the world is moving into AI with an accelerated pace. There is still work to be done, but the foundations allow us to have options.
Last but not least, the combination of talent, skills and personalities in the group of people that work on the project is another one. We were able to grow our network and added members who have skill sets which are very beneficial for the project. Our team is compact, yet with our combined skill set we can be efficient.
How did the Corona pandemic affect the project?
We have been oriented toward progressive ways of development already prior to the pandemic. The transition added hurdles, but from the perspective of the organization the pandemic was less of an abrupt effect than probably for many other fellow citizens or businesses. For the project the pandemic period could actually be somewhat beneficial. This is because society is transforming radically into a more digital one. This was true even prior to the pandemic, but new norms in society are not letting very many people operate outside of this trend. In this sense this round of digitalization is much more inclusive and it dictates the changes as a part of the new culture much more than rather being just an option for those that would prefer it. Consequently, the market has focused more on those businesses that have the potential to thrive in such a digital environment. Projects that connect well into this new way and can find their place in the new societal framework will perform better and may very well be ahead of the curve despite the obstacles of the pandemic.
Do you expect the pandemic to still last much longer?
In my opinion it is not the most important aspect. The transformation is here to stay. Reduced energy spending is becoming the new norm, an eco-friendly mindset is taking over, a new economic platform is being built. In general, these changes have not much to do with the pandemic even if the pandemic acts as a catalyst for them. What in my view will determine the path going forward is that society will not be willing to discard the investment that has already been made into this direction and will more likely than not continue to move even further in this direction even after pandemic figures improve. Rejecting the modus operandi which is being built would economically be just as much of a shock as was entering the transformation coming due to the pandemic. At a point when the adjustment will have been completed, we could be looking at similar lifestyles than before, but with the help of new mechanisms.
What would you emphasize to readers about methods that propelled the project forward through this period?
Despite many not believing we would make it through the crypto winter and the pandemic crisis and having openly written our project off, it was a group of very firm believers that was pushing the action forward each day and night. This included many sacrifices, remaining out of our comfort zone for extended periods of time, reaching out to contacts who could help and understand our goals, looking at how to accommodate the needs of the project as much as possible and to have a clear plan. Permitting the positive side to prevail is a challenge. If you only have as much of upside risks open as there are downside risks, you cannot really get out of the crisis anyway. We did our best to allow for the positive side to develop and we are getting some benefits out of that.
What are the biggest misconceptions you have heard about your project?
This may perhaps be that Diem Association’s project Libra and the X8 AG’s X8currency project are one and the same. They certainly aren’t and so we decided to write an in-depth comparison between the two, which anyone can read in an article dedicated to this topic.
How did the decision by Token.net to close their cryptocurrency exchange business influence the plans of X8?
We invested a lot of effort into connecting our system to the Token.net system. A large part of the plan was to start offering X8currency in the market and establish a mechanism with real-time price feed going over to the said exchange. After their decision to not continue with their cryptocurrency exchange our project will need to find an alternative exchange that also supports FIX Protocol. This technology is essential for the integration of such an exchange into our eco-system, also because it works reliably, latencies are lower and the standard is pretty much the same across various connections that we maintain with other partners that are a part of the end-to-end execution process. Although a part of the development effort was not lost, this setback due to Tokens.net was not expected and there was not much we could do about it.
There are only a few cryptocurrency exchanges that support this technology, which you mention. Does this mean that the project will be limited only to those?
There are a few more of them compared to a few years ago. FIX Protocol is a standard in the financial industry, so perhaps the number of cryptocurrency exchanges supporting FIX Protocol will grow further. Nevertheless, the project won’t depend solely on the cryptocurrency exchanges for product placement. We plan that the user portal will be able to reduce this dependency. We designed the architecture of the system in such a way that cryptocurrency exchanges and the user portal can be interchangeable and one can have different venues connected to the system simultaneously. This gives some flexibility. Nevertheless, they are two different things and setting up a business around them also works differently. At the moment we are pursuing both options.
What does the news about exchanges and the consequences of their termination of business mean for future prospects of the X8X Utility Token?
One take away that we were able to get from working on the implementation of the Tokens.net system is the construction of the mechanism, which can include our X8X utility token when people buy and sell stable coins in the open market. The mentioned conditions need to be met, so that we can relay within our system the mechanism of the stable coins with the open market of X8X. If a cryptocurrency exchange supports FIX protocol, then we can make that relay within the same cryptocurrency exchange. In that case even if people trade just and only stable coins, the X8X relay still gets automatically triggered based on activity volume recorded in the X8 stable coin market.
This means that even if the cryptocurrency exchange is not a 100% substitute for a user portal, a significant part of the functionality that attracted X8X utility token buyers can still be established for every such cryptocurrency exchange from now. That way, bypassing X8X is really not what users or traders with X8 stable coins on a cryptocurrency exchange could really do, even if they would only trade stable coins and not utility tokens. The system connects the two mentioned markets. The precision of the relay depends on factors like trade and fee threshold sizes of an exchange; however, we are able to build an automatic link that subject to protocols takes into account the X8X requirement for trading stable coins in the described example.
Is X8X Utility Token still predicted to operate by the same principle and formula?
We are still aiming for the same principle. The biggest step forward for this to work is the User Portal. Compared to a cryptocurrency exchange listing, the User Portal would give us the ability to differentiate more precisely the stable coin activity generated by non-X8X users on one hand and the stable coin activity generated by X8X users on the other. For example, on a cryptocurrency exchange you cannot have two separate price feeds for the same stable coin in order to account for the X8X principle. In a user portal you can do that so the mechanism can work more precisely and be applied on each trade plus on a trade-by-trade basis in this kind of setting.
The project has announced the cooperation with Listing Partners Sarl and Antevorta Capital Partners Ltd. Can you say more about what it means for the future?
It fortifies our position for the delivery of the product and also shows to the regulator our intent to develop the business over the long-term. It also means that as a project we will follow a prescribed way as regards the communication subject to the requirements for companies like X8 AG that take part in the regulatory processes and that enter the process for going public. More work awaits us, during each step we aim to manage the organization accordingly.
As per our analysis, this cooperation is one of the best strategies that can benefit the project and all the investors and supporters, including the token holders. We will also need to connect with the new target audience and create awareness about the X8currency product at the same time, which we plan to do in two stages (under the regulatory Sandbox regime and then under the Fintech licensing regime). X8 will need an appropriate platform to achieve this objective and to have the capacity for being able to grow together with the market. The selected approach addresses these needs in a comprehensive manner while allowing the project to focus on its vision.
What is your personal long-term outlook for gold, inflation and the USD?
Gold has a very long tradition and I believe that nothing will be able to move it out of its place. For the moment, gold is not what most investors have on their mind because cryptocurrency markets are in a bull trend. The short-term opportunity seems to work more in favour of Bitcoin while gold is seen more as an outdated alternative. I do not believe it will stay like that indefinitely. After a point it could be that a good part of the gold savings held by individuals will be converted into Bitcoin holdings because of the fear of missing out (FOMO), especially if we will see a melt up in the price of Bitcoin from where it is as of this moment ($30.000 to $50.000) and if gold stays where it is now.
If this scenario happens, it would be probably highly based on emotions that Bitcoin is triggering. Such reallocation of long-term savings from gold to Bitcoin could then after it potentially mark a big turning point from where gold may start outperforming every other asset again, including cryptocurrencies. This is how the markets work. I see this scenario potentially unfolding because the very long-term prospects for Bitcoin are simply much less known than those of gold. We simply don’t know how Bitcoin will work for society 20 year from now. At some point during the next couple of years I see the potential for the mentioned changes. If they would unfold like this, it could be one of those trades of the decade.
What about inflation?
The question about inflation is a trickier one. In a way all rules about the economy and inflation have been disrupted with the onset of blockchain, crypto and the P2P trend. It does not necessarily have everything to do with this relationship because there are other things like worldwide dependence on oil (the world still operates under the Petrodollar standard) for example. But the problem of the current monetary standard is that even if you boost the production of crude oil, it will not boost productivity growth in a sufficiently proportional ratio, especially not the way it did some decades ago and probably also not under changing eco-policies. Is this inflationary or deflationary? One could argue for both outcomes. It translates into growth being costly. Inflationary or deflationary comes out whether as a society we could afford growth when we need it.
Uncertainty is higher and nothing seems to work toward reducing it. For example, if the prolonged pandemic leads to more frequent supply chain shocks, then there is not much that the monetary system can do to overcome the price effects resulting from such events. These could be fast hyperinflationary events. However, if the digital transformation will actually improve supply chain efficiency, then we may see a big productivity boost over the course of a decade or so and that is the strongest shield against inflation. We could look at productivity also from the new perspective of what the GDP trend will be relative to oil production and this in order to better gauge probable outcomes regarding inflation. At the moment inflation expectations don’t seem to favour one outcome over another. In addition to the productivity perspective, a very significant relief against the fear of inflation would be a new form of abundant and inexpensive energy that would become available for society to use on a daily basis.
More hands-on approach to looking at it is money printing. However, money printing can be a generic term sometimes. Instruments of the monetary policy should not be mistaken for money printing. It means that it also depends on the policies adopted or to be adopted by the monetary authorities. With so many variables, the outlook is uncertain. With growth less smooth there can be a balance if the boom cycles justify expansions in balance sheets. During the pandemic period there have been measures made for easing of the absorption of the financial shock from it. It seemed like a lot of money printing, but more objectively the effect through time will show the outcomes.
Crypto reacted with a sharp rise in prices, presumably also based on the money printing premise. There may not be any inflation if productivity increases and allows monetary base to move less. It is also true that liquidity injection into the economy was not during an ordinary circumstance, nor even perhaps to target productivity growths, but rather for maintaining an economy functioning during the worst parts of the pandemic. All other things equal, if the same value of business was generated more effectively, money printing would not devalue the currency because of reduced costs.
Is the US dollar just a reverse trade compared to gold?
The US Dollar is definitely being challenged as a reserve currency. The subject is also a very political one though. Bitcoin market capitalization is so high that it is now raising legitimate questions about what might come next. Without going down the speculation route, I wish to point out that Bitcoin can be seen as M1 (cash) in terms of traditional measurements of money supply. By this parameter of M1 cash outstanding, the Bitcoin has already surpassed most other major currencies. Now Bitcoin has the Euro and the US Dollar in sight. Using this measurement stick the Bitcoin is already bigger than the Yen, Australian Dollar, British Pound Sterling, Swiss Franc plus some other currencies combined. Would the worldwide US Dollar markets reach a tipping point and become excessively volatile if the Bitcoin surpassed the US Dollar when looking at the topic from the M1 perspective? I think this is an important question for everyone and it may have big implications on various policies even prior to such a tipping point potentially being reached.
Based on what you are saying, is it too late for an average investor to enter into crypto at this stage?
I don’t think it is too late, although it is better to avoid buying at the top as certain markets have risen too much. Relatively thin liquidity in cryptocurrencies means that prices can be very volatile. This is what the crypto market shows us also when prices go higher. Without thin liquidity we would not have such parabolic uptrends. On the other hand, this means that if one considers buying cryptocurrencies, one needs to take this liquidity characteristic into account and also prepare to buy when corrections happen to the downside, but due to the same thin liquidity it is advisable to keep in mind that the corrective movement can be aggressive, therefore the use of leverage is not advised. This should be the case even if prices look very attractive at one point.
What would then be a reasonable approach for someone who wishes to participate?
If someone is just beginning to enter crypto, then a prudent approach is to divide the portfolio between the better-known instruments on one hand and new projects on the other. Among many new projects, which will be entering the crypto market in the future there will be some which have that potential, but for this investment process to work one needs to do some research. Overall, the majority of the gains long-term should come from such investments, while the established part of the portfolio balances this out to a certain extent and can play a more tactical role. If one needs portfolio adjustments this strategy will provide that possibility together with the upside potential.
At the end, I am curious, with so much work, what do you do to relax? Do you take time off at all? Do you manage to maintain any hobbies?
Personally, I like to compose music. Playing guitar definitely gives me an opportunity to put things into perspective. I love mathematics and I love being creative. Music combines these two perspectives quite well. Following science can also be very interesting when looking at all the new discoveries from a bit of a distance. I try to keep up and implement it together with computer science. On the other side, keeping strong connections with friends will encourage more development as regards almost any area one might be interested in. I follow this approach and I am always keen on learning from interactions. Being in touch with different cultures can also be very revitalizing, especially during traveling.
Among other hobbies, I like playing chess and from time to time I try to study something new. Practicing can also mean relaxing and you are still able to connect different thoughts and manage the time. It can work together with business and work. Walking without a smartphone is important, not to hold it in the hand during longer walks. I think that hobbies without a smartphone today are a rarity and that smartphones can help reduce the time to develop a new skill or a hobby as long as it is used in a balanced way.
Thank you for taking part in the interview and I wish you and the team some great progress going forward.
Thank you and to the team.
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